It is extremely unlikely that a father and son or even uncle and nephew would be on the same field of play during the same decade, let alone game, so I would agree with you that adding a suffix is entirely unnecessary.
The Manning brothers, both very well known and both holding the same occupation, have just Manning on their shirts because despite the similarity, nobody gets confused. In the case of Dale Earnhardt and his son, the son uses Jr properly to distinguish himself because there was a short time when that might have been confusing.
Super extremely rare. Ken Griffey and Ken Griffey Jr. Raymond W. Ryan, Jr. I wish more people agreed. However, there is one case…and only one case…when a suffix may be used without being on a birth certificate or part of a legal change and it is from a bygone era. A widow may use Sr in casual paperwork or conversation to distinguish herself from her daughter-in-law. In ye olden days, two things were common: 1.
Men could drop their suffix if all the people who had the name before them were dead. For example, if George Washington, George Jr and George III were all dead, George IV could drop the suffix since it would have been likely that everyone they might have encountered would have been the same people who would have typically known the others were dead and there would have been no confusion.
This meant that if a man dies, leaving a widow and the son had a wife, both women could use the same name. In the example from above, there might be two Mrs. George Washingtons. If George died, George Jr could drop the suffix in non-legal paperwork. So, the widow would take on the Sr to mark her as the widow of the older. If you read this whole thread, you will know I would love men to stop using Sr.
They think they are separating themselves from their sons, which is nice of course, but it is unnecessary. They are distinguished by having a different suffix or not having a suffix to begin with.
I would like to put forward another suggestion. Just like how languages and cultures evolve over time, perhaps the usage of Jr and Sr are also evolving.
Any attempt would be futile anyways since people seem to do whatever they want nowadays. Connie, This is a great question. Now, when you get married, you are right again. I stumbled on your post when looking for the the proper usage of Jr and II. They are one of the best, if not the very best, sources for genealogical data and resources.
They can all be found via google or you can contact the General Society in Plymouth. Actually, any group like the Daughters or Sons of The American Revolution with their ancestry based membership should be able to give you direction. I would caution you not to pursue anyone you see only on the internet because there is no oversight over who can claim to be a professional, I am not and I have seen hopelessly unqualified people claiming they were certified by some organization that sells certifications.
Ask for references, of course. I wish you good luck. There is no established system that cannot be varied. You can do whatever you prefer and not be violating anything. In this thread I have endeavored to explain how suffixes are used traditionally and why they came into use. In the modern world they are not unimportant, just less important and used less. This has lead to more confusion and misinformation. You are absolutely correct, however, that anybody can name their child as they please and choose to use a suffix in a traditional way or an untraditional way.
My cotillion classes as a kid taught me differently. Now, I am named exactly after my dad. That makes me a Jr. You just have to be named after someone not in your immediate family. After the Jr. Martin, Unfortunately, you have been partially lead astray regarding the traditional use of suffixes. You do need to have the exact same name as someone in order to have a suffix.
Suffixes developed precisely because people had the exact same name and it was a way of sorting out one from the other. The suffix is given at birth, so you can only use the one you are given, or you may drop the suffix if you are the closest to the original and the original and those between you and the original are dead.
You are correct though that once the II or Jr are used the numbers are given in birth order, regardless of the number of the father. That is a rare situation but it happens and it is great fun for genealogists. Would it be following the traditional guidelines if she be called Elizabeth II? Do you see any problems with it? We both love the name Elizabeth, and it would obviously be a bonus to have that ring to it considering the Queen!
Alex, Following the traditional rules, the child of the original with the exact same name is called Jr. II is reserved for a child with an identical name but who is not the child of the original, typically a nephew. That said, these are traditional rules and not laws, by any means. If you want to name your daughter Elizabeth and give her a II because she has an identical name, I think it is a great idea. Please help before baby is born!! Dear Manuela, Congratulations!
Hey ok I name my son after his father only thing is the middle name is different….. Iesha, According to the traditional rules, no.
Your son must have an identical name to his father to use Jr. The Jr, or any other suffix were created to mitigate the confusion of identical names, since your son and his father have different names, even if it is just the middle name, the Jr is unnecessary and even implies that there is another man with the identical name that is really the father.
My best wishes to your family. Please help. Carlos, Congratulations on your grandson! Traditionally, II is only used for a boy born to close family of the original but not the son of the original. Usually a nephew. You gave him your family name and a suffix to distinguish him from you and his grandfather. This thread is only about what is traditional.
So, traditionally, your new grandson would have been IV, but since you named your son II, it is perfectly sensible to name your grandson III. Carlos, I must apologize for the delay in answering. It appears the system cancelled my first attempt at answering. Congratulations on your new grandson! The suffix II is used for a close relative to the original, but born before the original had a chance to become father to a JR, typically a nephew.
However, you took the untraditional step of using II for your son, who traditionally would have been III.
Now that your son is a father, it makes sense for him to name the new baby III, since three follows two. Your grandson is the fourth with the name but since both Jr and II were used in the same line of descent, you wind up one number off.
It is simply untraditional. My best wishes to you all. My father is alive. I am having a son which i am naming after my father and I. Does he simply become the third III or is it more complicated then that since youve said a few times that suffix III is only for cousins nephews and skipped generations.. Would my son, the third person total and consecutively with the same name, be the second II or third III? Ronald, Congratulations!
Your son, the third to have the identical name, will be III. Things only get a little awkward with cousins and nephews. All in a row. Fred, Thank you. I have been studying genealogy and family history for over 30 years. I am retired but I have worked with two genealogy based organizations as both management and researcher.
Is that incorrect? My brother was a Jr [until he switched his name around] and I was told he would become the II if he names his kid the same as him and our dad….
When a Jr has a son, the son, if named identically, is a III. If upon the death of the original, the Jr. The eldest may choose to drop the suffix, but everybody else, retains their number. Should a death occur in the middle, the same rule applies. Then as time goes by and Jr dies, IV may then, and only then, change or drop the suffix.
In other words, only the man living that is closest to the original may change or drop the suffix. Everyone else stays the same. Let me clarify one other point. Everyone else was to use the Arabic version, like 3rd or 4th instead. John Q. Smith, IV should be John Q. Smith, 4th. However, this rule has been amended because monarchs and popes use only a single name and everyone else uses at least a surname and a often a middle name.
Therefore, there is little chance for confusion. Good grief. Looking back at this, after all this time, I realize I never answered the question completely. For example, John Q. Smith names his first son is John Q.
Smith Jr. The child would be Robert F. Smith, II. The genealogy fun starts when someone names a child out of order. Then we skip down a generation. Smith, III. If Robert, Jr. Number three could be father to number five and number four could be the father to number six. Now, back to my first response, please lets all pledge to prevent men from using Sr. So I named my son after me. He has the exact first, middle and last name. He is now and will forever be the II on his birth certificate and I have no designation as the first on my birth certificate.
Why is it not correct to name your son the II instead of jr? Joe Frye, Naming your son II, is unusual but not wrong. The Jr suffix is used to denote the direct descendant of the original and II is traditionally used to denote a close but not direct descendant, typically a nephew. Your son is the second person in your family, so II makes some sense. This thread is about the traditional use of suffixes and you can proudly name your son anything you want.
The worst that can be said is that by using II instead of Jr people who only know your names, will likely think he was your nephew not son. In doing genealogy research, I read about a 19th Century family that had a first son to whom they gave the Jr suffix but who died as an infant. When the second son was born they gave him the II suffix. The traditional method of using suffixes developed over time to simplify understanding of who was who but the rules, traditional though they may be, are not set in stone.
There is no correct or incorrect anymore. There is just traditional and untraditional. IIs are pretty rare and he will have many opportunities to talk about sharing his name with his father. Imagine that, 71 babies in Tennessee have the same name as you in A total of 1, babies also bear the same first name during that year in the U.
From to , the highest recorded use of this name was in with a total of 1, babies. The name first appeared in the year and given to nine newborn babies. It ranked 26 with babies. The all-time high record for this name was in in the state of West Virginia with baby boys.
Now you know why your first name rocks. Time to show your creativity! Try exploring the names of everyone you know including friends, cousins, neighbors, classmates, co-workers, or your pets.
Even your favorite anime, TV, or movie characters. Remember, this is purely just for fun. Back in the old days, when child mortality was high, it was common to name a child after an older child who had died — and the name used, in turn, was usually either a family name that had been used a lot over several generations or the name of a recent or contemporary relative the parents wanted to honor.
However, the most common type of naming, when it comes to naming a child after someone, in particular, is to name a boy after his father or another family member of the same name usually one who did great things, was well known, or was highly respected, in the hopes the child would follow in those venerable footsteps. You can see this type of naming pattern quite clearly in the kings and sometimes queens of old. There have been eight kings of England named Henry, and another eight named Edward, for example.
It is easy to see here that the kings and queens were being named after previous monarchs of the same name, sometimes their parents and sometimes earlier royal branches on their family tree. However, with regular people, the use of II and Jr can sometimes be confusing.
There is nothing set in stone about how these two name suffixes should be used, but there is a common usage. That common usage is to use Jr when the child is being named directly after his father and to use II when the child is to have the name of an earlier male relative, such as a grandfather, uncle, great-uncle, great-grandfather, etc.
The Jr suffix has some other unofficial rules associated with it. One of these is that calling a man Sr is only to be done after he has passed, and also only when his Jr offspring has married. Carter G. Woodson, Black Historian. Plato and Aristotle on the Family: Selected Quotes. Discovering the Occupations of Your Ancestors. Birth of the Olympian Gods and Goddesses. Your Privacy Rights. To change or withdraw your consent choices for ThoughtCo. At any time, you can update your settings through the "EU Privacy" link at the bottom of any page.
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